From the universities, for example?

Let put religious and secular fundamentalism asside. What was the ground on which these ban was in placed?

The grounds for the ban were that a headscarf is a religious-item and since the government is secular and free of all religious doctrines, headscarf is forbidded in all government-controlled institutions. Actual motives of the person is disregarded. That is to say that a woman may be going to a university for purely education purposes (no intention to expose religion to others at all) and her headscarf is merely a choice of fashion, but she'd still be denied entry.

That policy is of course a gross breach of personal rights and is incompatible with the liberties and realities of the 21st century, breach of democracy, disrespect of Turkey's general global identity as a majority-Muslim country, disrespect of Turkey's historical culture and traditions, disrespect of our women and the personal choices they make, and worst of all, disrespect of our history and even martyrs.



Here's a picture of how most Turkish women looked during Turkey's independence war in the aftermath of Ottoman Empire's collapse in WW1.

They're carrying ammunition to the batte front. I don't quite see anyone with a miniskirt, now, am I?

What we're shamelessly doing now in the name of "Secularism" is basically telling these heroic women this:

- You know, we're really glad that you're carrying ammo instead of taking care of your babies, in a war that we MEN are vastly responsible. It's okay to cover your heads, of course. For now. Some of us think it doesn't look pretty but it's not like we're going to require you that you expose your hair in the middle of a war while you're helping us resist the enemy forces. What we're NOT telling you is that if we win the war and once our secular new republic is found, we're going to force you and your daughters to look like the wives and daughters of the very enemies we're fighting now.

- If you don't, we will deny you the most basic human right: Education. Thank you for your help and sacrifices for all these centuries and especially during the war, but we really don't give a flying fvck what your traditions or beliefs are. If you don't look like our enemies, we'll make your lives so miserable that you won't even want to be alive. It's not a choice. Capiche? Caapiiiche? Say capiche, say it!

- Now, go take off that ugly headwear that you've worn for centuries, put on your miniskirt, and come to the reception our enemies are throwing at the central ballet. I'll make you drink champaigne and watch me flirt with other women who look sexier than you...



It is pathetic. Sad. Inhumane. Illogical. Retarded. And... treacherous to the very thing that makes us Turks and Muslims.

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We Turks are having such a gross identity crisis that even though we attempt to cherish and exalt the role of our women in our wars by making statues showing them in their natural outfit carrying weapons to battle, today we don't let our women whose outwear resembles this statue have a proper education. I'm so embarressed and angered by this that I don't think I can ever find the proper words to describe how I feel.

And I'm a guy whose mother wears a headscarf but sister (she's 40) has never worn it. So I know from personal experience that the two kinds of women can peacefully coexist in a family, which is a lot tighter that a school environment.

Here's Ataturk's own mother, Zubeyde Hanim. Guess what he's wearing.



I wonder if Ataturk, the man who found secular Turkey, would have wanted Turkey's government to deny his mother entry to schools... Mmm...

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There should be no banning of things on the basis of religious activities coz it may stops things in the short run but creates a monster in long run.
Before 911 we had in Pakistan alot of religious based groups / parties like Hizb Tahrir, AL Mahjeroons etc. These were banned by Mushraf. Now what happened is kids are either not at all religious and if they are they do not have other choice but to join the violent banned out fit, they get so brain washed that they kill people for their ideas

as the old saying goes-- '' give them a inch ,they take a mile ''.........if the secularists concede on this one ,then other demands will be raised until whatever progress turkey has made will be reversed.

first official face palm in this defence

*face palm*

do you also follow this rule in your home???, its not secularism but communism

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as high and as strong as K2

Forget it yaar !!! lets not fight on this thread. He just gave his own opinion. I do not think non of us can influence what our governments do.

as usual ,you pakistanis are so filled with hate , hate , and more hate that you brought India into it , as you bring it into everything

this reminds me of a speech given by benazir bhutto in UN when she was prime minister

at the end of it when she was being introduced to some people , one of them said , '' ah ,the prime minister of india !! ''

when she said ,'' no , i am prime minister of pakistan ''.

then he said surprised , '' but you were talking about india all the time !! ''

he probably hadn't noticed the HATE in her voice when she talked of india !!

@ PakSarzameen, There is no need for disrespect. Ashdoc's comment wasnt disrespectful. us turks would like to dispel any hatred between ur 2 nations and if anything bring u guys closer, not create a forum that perpetuates the animosity between ur 2 nations
@ ashdoc, on what do u base ur claim. do u feel that women who have a religious belief should be denied a full education or employment within gov institutions. if so then u advocate making a certain segment of the population 2nd class citizens purely based on their religion. that is a fundamental breach of human rights. if a individual is employed by the gov and that individual performs their duty as was prescribed then what is the problem. it doesnt mean the gov is no longer secular. after all the true meaning of secularism is that it is neutral regarding religious ideology. not anti religion as in turkey. i live in Australia where Muslim women can wear religious atire, and where Sikhs can wear their religious head wear. the gov allows religious attire and u dont see the collapses of secularism here. on the contrary u see a more moderate view from its people.
our postmen have to by law wear helmets because they ride motor bikes but sikhs r exempt from wearing them. it is the individuals choice if he feels that the danger of serious injury out weighs his obligations to his religion. either way it does not pose any threat to the gov or non religious people

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